After repeated instances where staff felt like this player was unable to differentiate between IC and OOC, we have decided to rescind the invitation for AmorCinocera, with the ability to re-apply in three months.
The first and most concerning incident happened on December 4th, 2024:
Amor — 12/4/24, 8:43 PM
i'm started to be a bit worried about the uhm... whatever Nine's up to
right so haha it's a funny joke but i'm legitimately wondering just how much of this is IC considering they Nine constantly attempts to provoke Cameron IC
a little bit of being childish is okay but it's honestly getting a bit too much and I'm at the point I don't even bother logging in because all i'm gonna see his harrassment from Nine.
like I look at mudlet with dread because I know once I step out and do my job or go anywhere, Nine is going to be there, he's going to be passive aggressive
and sure I know cameron pulled a knife on him out of frustration woe is me but that frustration comes from his already constant mocking of anyone especially medics
i've honestly started playing Cameron differently cause realistically he would have retaliated by now but I'm not about to let my character lose everything cause one guy won't stop mocking him
Rune — 12/4/24, 11:33 PM
Hello, @Amor!
I'm very sorry that you're not having fun at Untold Dawn. We want everyone to have a fun experience. It seems to me like you're not enjoying the way that Nine is being played towards you; what actions do you suspect from the character are not IC? When you talk about harrassment, what are you referring to? What actions do you think we should take in an ideal scenario?
I'm happy to talk this with you and hopefully we can get to the bottom of it.
Amor — 12/4/24, 11:36 PM
the harrassment stems out from cameron's anger toward him and the incident in the ACC meeting. However Nine himself has shown he's willing to poke at Cameron anytime trying to get him to retaliate and I believe Nine's aware that if Cameron does he's fired.
on top of that the spreading of conspiracies is something multiple people have stated they do not like.
as for bleed it's just how determined Nine is to do this
it feels like there's more to it than just a funny character but I've been told he's just being played 'true to form'
Rune — 12/4/24, 11:37 PM
Let's unpack this stuff for a second
When you refer to the conspirancies and people not enjoying it, are you referring to IC commentaries or OOC commentaries? What do people not enjoy about this storyline?
Amor — 12/4/24, 11:38 PM
i'm not sure if anyone's said much OOC but i know IC there's a lot of frustration and I don't think people really enjoy this kind of thing. I know I don't enjoy it and it's gotten worse. Realistically there's really 0 repercussions IC to people doing this despite how obviously disruptive it is.
and i'm honestly not sure that's the kind of thing colonists should be doing
spreading conspiracies
Rune — 12/4/24, 11:41 PM
I think it's important to separate when people make an IC commentary and appear frustrated versus OOC commentary; because someone is roleplaying frustrated ICly doesn't mean that they are OOCly unhappy with a storyline
Amor — 12/4/24, 11:42 PM
it's still a very disruptive activity he's shown he has no remorse causing distrust and anger and again I don't think this is the kind of storyline we need right now or at all in game given there's already distrust and things flying around about certain NPCs
I try to rp believeably and that includes anger
however people don't want to see believeable anger
cameron's anger could get me in trouble
Rune — 12/4/24, 11:48 PM
I'm trying to understand this but I'm struggling to parse it
Amor — 12/4/24
it's still a very disruptive activity he's shown he has no remorse causing distrust and anger and again I don't think this is the kind of storyline we need right now or at all in game given there's already distrust and things flying around about certain NPCs
Rune — 12/4/24
Do you mean that the character has shown no remorse about causing distrust and anger? Why do you think these are undesirable emotions on an OOC level? Why do you think that intrigue of this kind is not the storyline we need right now or at all? What's wrong with these things? It feels like normal thoroughfare of roleplay to sometimes be pissed off about minor friction roleplay. It's part of some of the light conflict. Now, this conflict isn't going into full-on PVP (i.e. permadeath threats), and from what I read in the logs is minor brushes or commentaries. I am very confused about this.
Amor — 12/4/24
I try to rp believeably and that includes anger
however people don't want to see believeable anger
Rune — 12/4/24
I don't understand what you mean here. What do you mean that people don't want to see believable anger? Roleplay is about playing a role and people sometimes get angry.
Amor — 12/4/24
cameron's anger could get me in trouble
Rune — 12/4/24
OOCly? How?
Amor — 12/4/24, 11:50 PM
let me explain the anger part. I've played characters with anger issues in the past on other games. that anger gets people to ask me if i'm okay OOC and they assume there's OOC bleed because of how believeable it is. It's also gotten people uncomfortable around me as a player because "if it's believeable then they have anger issues" and i've actually been banned from an SS14 server once for IC 'vitriol' because of this believeable anger.
as for the conspiracies and mistrust. WE're alone on an alien planet full of bugs and rats that want to tear us into little pieces why in the world would someone find joy making people uncomfortable and why and how would that benefit the colony?
Rune — 12/4/24, 11:51 PM
I want to be frank with you rather than beat around the bush, because I think you deserve my full honesty, and I'd like us to talk honestly and frankly as we have been because I care for you as a player and a member of this community.
Rune — 12/4/24, 11:56 PM
I've read the logs and I see some very minor antagonism that seems to stem from trying to give people something to look into. When you tell me stuff like this about "us" and "someone finding joy", it feels like perhaps it might stem from taking it personally rather than it being a roleplay game where people might sometimes play characters that are assholes or the like. And in roleplay games, you will find storylines where someone is the "bad guy".
Part of the fun of roleplay is the conflicts, the challenge; when you tell me that "we're alone on an alien planet and we don't need this" I feel worried that you're not understanding it's a roleplay game where that "immersing yourself into a role" is part of the fun. Correct me if I am wrong, please!
In SS13 servers, for example, you would have people who play antagonist rounds. In TTRPGs, you would have the GM play out antagonists and enemies. In RPIs, sometimes, people take antagonistic roles or brush people the wrong way. That does not mean the player is an asshole; they might be taking joy from the conflict, but in a NORMAL SITUATION it stems from an attempt to generate conflict which brews roleplay.
The essence of all plots in any mediums (movies, books, etc) is conflict. It drives the narrative foward and gives characters goals, obstacles and stakes. Conflict creates tension and presents a struggle to resolve.
It appears to me that you're confusing people being ICly frustrated about this IN CHARACTER CONFLICT as people being unhappy about it OOCly.
It appears to me that you're taking it personally; I reviewed the logs of this morning and it didn't appear like he was harrassing you, but making a commentary after you both engaged in that conflict-ful sequence where he was saying commentaries and your character drew a knife.
I would however be eager to know what I can do to make you feel better about this situation in general.
Amor — 12/4/24, 11:57 PM
let me give you more on how he's harassing cameron
the other day, Cameron and Godric were in the culinary hub eating, Nine comes in to skin a rat. He doesn't say anything to cameron directly. But he's referencing things cameron had said and even once said "the kitchen is probably the one place pulling out a knife is okay" in an attempt to get a reaction out of Cameron. Cameron doesn't retaliate but does yell about it after Nine leaves. It was fully uncalled for and goes a bit beyond teasing.
when he leaves he calls cameron "Cam-cam" and that's what set him off. A mocking nickname
now I understand what you're saying about antagonists and i raise you this: Nine isn't an antagonist
Amor — Yesterday at 12:00 AM
he's a colonist
he's part of the janitorial services, he hunts and skins rats
what part of this makes him a valid antagonist?
Rune — Yesterday at 12:01 AM
Do you think I should ban people for having conflicts with other characters and making indirect references to these conflicts?
Amor — Yesterday at 12:01 AM
further SS13 references: this would be called Self-Antagging in most rp servers
Rune — Yesterday at 12:01 AM
Do you think I should ban people from nicknaming other characters or police the nicknames they provide to other characters?
Amor — Yesterday at 12:02 AM
character conflict is fine. Cameron is ignoring him, however, so now it's just harrassment. Disruptive harrassment. No, a ban isn't waht I'm saying I'm saying they need to tone it down because Cameron cannot be anywhere but his room or the medbay without being antagonized by him which isn't something I like to engage in long-term
i get cameron fuckekd up but at some point the joke is old
another character had to firmly tell him to leave Cameron alone in the medbay even.
Rune — Yesterday at 12:03 AM
Your character pulled a knife on them and he's roleplaying from it man, do you think he should be policed from offering nicknames and making indirect references to this scene? Should he be punished if he talks about it in the way his character concept would talk about it to other characters? What's the line there?
Amor — Yesterday at 12:04 AM
It's disrupting other characters too, that's where the issue is coming from now. I don't want to be confined to two rooms cause of this.
I want to be able to play
Rune — Yesterday at 12:05 AM
Okay, so the issue is that you feel that other players are being disrupted by this to a point where the game is unplayable and uncomfortable for them?
Amor — Yesterday at 12:05 AM
That would be a question for them. I can't speak for them I can only say what I've seen IC
Rune — Yesterday at 12:06 AM
What's the OOC problem with this roleplay brushing other characters?
Amor — Yesterday at 12:07 AM
I've already said I don't know what they say OOC I'm saying I'm having issues wanting to play because I feel confined to two places.
even then, Nine knows where Cameron's cabin is
which is incredibly concerning because Cameron never told him.
Rune — Yesterday at 12:12 AM
It feels to me that you're having trouble differentiating IC conflict from OOC conflict; if he knows where you live or not that's an IC thing, not something to be concerned about OOCly. In the ACC meeting, you decided to draw a knife on them over a "what do doctors know?" commentary; if you didn't want to roleplay a conflict with them, why did you do this?
I can ask for a cooldown period, but if that's going to be the MO for when conflict that you escalate doesn't go your way, it's going to be a problem going forward. UD is a game that prioritizes PVE, but character tensions are fine. People reacting to you drawing a knife on them is fine. People making commentaries like "what do doctors know?" or "Cam-Cam" is fine.
Amor — Yesterday at 12:13 AM
harassing him in the kitchen is fine i guess
yeah I figured this would come back to "you drew a knife" fuck what I know about being uncomfortable with this.
cameron's been ignoring him maybe he'll get bored but i doubt it
i guess i just gotta live with being confined to a single room
Rune — Yesterday at 12:16 AM
I don't understand, I was at the meeting and your character was taking issue to the cremation thing and decided to engage in the conflict with them; before that, I have heard of other characters trying to reason with your character to chill about Nine. It seems like your character was mad with Nine for a while and then the knife drawing happened. Did that stem not from a desire to roleplay that but OOC frustration?
Amor — Yesterday at 12:17 AM
you're accusing me of making cameron draw the knife cause of an OOC bleed? Cameron's even said he's not sure why he drew it, he never intended to use it. Yeah, Cameron's not okay with cremation, that's his beliefs talking. He's learned a coping mechanism to deal with Nine trying to bait him and it's working.
Cameron doesn't have the knife now, it's gone. He's ignoring Nine but that doesn't change the fact I'm, once again, confined and limited and I don't enjoy that at all
Rune — Yesterday at 12:21 AM
I don't know if it's bleed, I'm just asking you a question. Why did you initiate this conflict, if I can ask you? Did you expect something different from this roleplay?
Amor — Yesterday at 12:21 AM
I didn't expect to cameron to be outright bullied to the point I cannot play, no
but that apparently doesn't seem an issue
Rune — Yesterday at 12:22 AM
So your character is fine to yell at them and draw a knife at them and confront them ICly, but they can't call you Cam-Cam or reference the event of the knife drawing?
Amor — Yesterday at 12:23 AM
I'm saying trying to bait cameron to make his situation worse isn't okay no.
cause it's not.
Rune — Yesterday at 12:23 AM
Why?
your character*
Amor — Yesterday at 12:24 AM
Would you bait some into a fight cause you didn't like them to get gleeful joy out of watching them suffer?
or would you, knowing you don't like them, leave them the fuck alone cause their problems aren't your business?
one of these is the adult answer and the other is a childish answer.
Rune — Yesterday at 12:25 AM
IRL? No. But this is not real life. This is a roleplaying game.
Amor — Yesterday at 12:25 AM
we're all adults roleplaying adult people
you said you liked believability in rp?
we're all adult chosen to colonize a planet and presumably showed intelligence enough to be mature
the mature thing is to own up to what happened and move on
the childish thing is to try and bait him to make his life worse
Cameron is actively trying to move on and repair what he did. Nine is trying to make it worse.
Rune — Yesterday at 12:29 AM
If this was real life, your character would've been fired immediately for drawing a knife on a colonist, and then going back and forth on it during the subsequence scenes with the head of CyGene RRM, Governor-General and Deputy Governor General, threatening to refuse treatment. But we're a roleplay game so we try to give them plot hooks and the like to keep batting for the team; people are expected to have mental flaws and the like (like Cameron, presumably, does).
Or should I not choose believability there but I should choose believability when he references that roleplay?
Amor — Yesterday at 12:30 AM
he has anger issues, yes. You're still missing the point of how the harrassments gotten to the point I don't even want Cameron around anyone outside of the medbay.
every time i see Nine i get a pit of dread in my gut and every time so far I've been right that he'd prod at Cameron
i had to change the way I rp cameron just to avoid it getting worse cause realistically he would have actually retaliated by now.
Rune — Yesterday at 12:32 AM
You're deflecting everything I say and moving the goal posts and it's getting to a point where it's frustrating. The harrassment you are talking about is commentaries that are very interpretative in nature from a player reacting to your roleplay, after your character yelled at them, decide to take issue with what they were saying, drew a knife on them.
Amor — Yesterday at 12:32 AM
so further trying to get cameron to hit nine is okay. So I'd be okay to punch him?
i wouldn't be.
Rune — Yesterday at 12:33 AM
OOCly you would be fine, but ICly there would be consequences to actions for sure
Amor — Yesterday at 12:33 AM
using that same argument here, if cameron bit it would be fine since Nine made the choice to bait him.
so Nine gets no IC reprimand for trying to bait Cameron?
cause "he started it"
Rune — Yesterday at 12:40 AM
For sure, if that happens in the roleplay it would be fine; I'm not going to randomly punish someone ICly randomly because of something that has not gotten at all to NPCs. But that is a roleplay thing.
I'm going to be honest with you, I don't feel this kind of games might be right for you if you are unable to differentiate the difference between the OOC and IC. I've been asking other players for the last hour and nobody but you has seen issues. The way you're referencing to this roleplay suggests that you are taking the roleplay very personally.
I feel like it's a huge problem if you are unable to see that it's fine for someone to react to roleplay you started, that to me seem quite mild. If some character has yelled at another character (which is way more direct that indirect commentaries), someone has drew a knife on me, etc, and then they get punished for it, my character is fine to roleplay about it, comment on it, etc. And I feel like it's a huge problem if you're unable to differentiate from commentaries done to your character versus yourself. I feel like it's a huge problem that you are approaching this in such a personal way, and in an OOC way.
I am also very concerned that this is not going to change and we're unable to understand each other when I am trying to explain it. It makes me feel like these issues will only bubble in you and make you feel worse. I feel like it can end spilling into your roleplay, the community, etc.
I would like to hear what you think about what I've said.
Amor — Yesterday at 12:43 AM
I'm not taking it personal, I've even already said I dunno what people think about this OOC but I'm clearly alone in this that harrassing cameron isn't okay to do. I guess Cameron just has to keep ignoring him. As such I'll be pulling cameron away from any questions about the cards or Nine as I don't want anything to do with the plot.
Cameron already thinks Nine's doing it as the evidence points to Nine but he also seems to be alone in this assumption.
If people come to cameron and ask him about the cards spreading the conspiracy he'll politely say he doesn't know anything else and excuse himself.
He'll tend to Nine when he has to as it's his job and has been, despite his discomfort around the man.
He was even praised by Michael for handling it despite his opinions on Nine.
And Nine, thankfully, has shown he won't let Cameron get hurt when we faced off 3 rats.
I do still feel like it's incredibly unfair and unreasonable for Cameron to be baited non-stop. I don't think I'll budge on that but it should eventually taper off.
I'm not sure what else you wanna hear.
Rune — Yesterday at 12:56 AM
I want you to have fun and understand that this is a character. YOU are NOT Cameron. YOU are NOT in danger. It's a roleplay game so I think you should roleplay and I would love to see you ease into that. I've learned to play games by being able to differentiate from IC and OOC and they're really fun. I played perma-death games; this is a game where distrust, conflict, etc. Is fine. I do not want you to try to get another player in trouble for playing their role, or try to get me to police something like this.
I need you to stop with the issue of being unable to differnetiate IC from OOC. Nine is entitled to engage with this roleplay; he should not be told to not reference this roleplay or try to bait someone who did the things that Cameron did. I would be giving you plot armor from a conflict that you started.
Do you think you will be capable of separating the IC from the OOC in cases where no rule break is going on, where the other player is reacting to conflict you started and they are simplying playing a character?
Amor — Yesterday at 12:57 AM
yes
Rune — Yesterday at 1:01 AM
Thank you. I appreciate you reaching out to me; I am sorry if we could not reach the resolution you expected, but this is a situation where your expectations of the roleplay that you will encounter in Untold Dawn do not match the reality. Above all, the best advice I can give you is that if that kind of roleplay is too much for you, it might be best to consider other avenues for your roleplay fix; there are MUSHes, or TTRPG where it's a party expected to all work together; I don't want your mental health to suffer and I know these things can take a toll on us as a player.
It would definitely suck to lose you as a player, we really appreciate the time, effort and roleplay you've created; but the other player is just playing a character. I have tried to audit this to the best of my ability and there is no OOC malice at all.
We love you and we're all telling a story here. This is more like a book rather than real life!
There was a period after the player of Nine was banned where it seemed like this player was improving. They also applied to staff, but the application didn’t proceed. However, today, during an RPT there was a second incident.
After an NPC told them to shut up during a situation where the NPC was under duress and the character was repeating their ideas repeatedly, some which thematically the NPC would react that way, he started to think about favoritism in-character.
[Think-Net] Cameron - a tall, tanned man (#6418) thinks: That would be so refreshing...
[Think-Net] Cameron - a tall, tanned man (#6418) thinks: By being a right cunt and playing favorites.
At the moment, we noted that their actions appeared bleedy, but we didn’t want to assume on the player’s counter-part. Eventually, they posted this on Discord:
Amor — Today at 1:09 PM
and with that, I believe I shall take a break from UD
if you wanna know why you're free to dm me
Players anonymously reported that they were saying that their contributions to the game were no longer valued, based on this in-character interaction.
Ultimately, the Untold Dawn staff team has lost trust on this player’s ability to separate In-Character from Out-Of-Character and, rather than to find our interactions with this player degrade in the future if they were to decide to return, we have decided to remove them from play and the community.